This thread will act as a debate platform for fans to discuss the differences and competition between Legendary's Godzilla and Toho's Shin-Gojira from Godzilla Resurgence.
We can separate the debate into 3 main categories:
Design and Concept
Which Godzilla has the better design? Which influential concepts did the King of the Monsters the most justice?
Abilities in a Fight
If the two Godzillas ever met and engaged in combat. Which one is more powerful? How would that battle play out?
Film Style and Quality
Keeping in mind both are completely different styles of film, this category is likely to spark some diverse opinions. Those debating this category should be familiar with both film's backgrounds and messages.
Regarding Godzilla Resurgence, many debate points will need to wait until new footage and/or the film is released. As right now, we don't know much about Shin-Goji's abilities and film style. For now however, the design is open for comparison and debate.
Let them fight...
Typical of the Japanese, they always have to have theirs stronger and better than our rendition of Godzilla.
^I don't think Legendary was attempting to make the strongest or best Godzilla with their version.
If they were then their research wasn't that thorough on what previous versions could do.
Legendary never had the strongest to begin with. A good argument can be made that two-to-three prior Godzilla incarnations would trounce the 2014 version. Making an incarnation more powerful that 2014 really isn't that difficult. It can pretty much be done incidentally at this point.
Although I can't confirm anything for certain until seeing the full movie, one element is stronger for sure: Shin Godzilla's atomic ray makes Legendary's look like a water pistol. I'm not ready to say Shin Godzilla has the most powerful atomic ray of any Godzilla incarnation, (Heisei and Final Wars is pretty ridiculous) but it looks like it's up there.
I just don't want him to be Heisei series & Final Wars overpowered. With it being a solo-Godzilla movie, it makes more sense for this incarnation to be a powerhouse in some way. But lets keep his atomic ray within Earth's atmosphere.
Godzillafan2016, you're acting like a fanboy
aNd lIsTeN tHiS uP! yOu'Re gOiNg tO...i'M gOiNg tO...iF yOu dO tHiS oNe mOrE tImE i'M gOiNg tO tElL mIsS mUrRaY tHaT yOu dOnE tHaT sH!T! dO yOu hEaR mE?
When people were naming winners when we only saw the shin godzilla trailer I think everyone was sounding a little like a fanboy of some kind whether it be for Shin or Legendary
From the extremely small sampling I've seen of Shin's ray, it reminds me of a miles long light saber being shot out of his mouth. Combined with a couple other tricks up his sleeve, it's almost as if Toho was saying, "Oh yeah? Look at what ours can do!"
^Yeah, but really, some of those tricks are no more "out there" than what we've seen before. In fact some of them just seem like extensions of other abilities. Particularly...
Well aware of past tricks. I was referring more to a "one upsmanship" to the Legendary G. I made a reference in another post that Toho has taken liberties with their character several times over the years, and he's theirs to do with as they please. Same with Rodan, Mothra, etc. It's definitely not a first, but this fan has never been crazy about it.
Like you said, let's keep his atomic ray within Earth's atmosphere.
I still don't think there's deliberate "one upmanship" going on. Like I said previously, it's not particularly hard to invent a Godzilla incarnation that's stronger or has more abilities than the Legendary Godzilla. It can pretty much be done incidentally.
^Agreed. I've been one of G14's harshest critics; you know that. Legendary made him the biggest (not strongest, best), and then Toho made him even bigger, with a few more abilities. I think any that were in the same height/size range were more powerful, based on what we saw.
and why go bigger? This one could have been 1/2 the size, and with the breath weapon on display would have been more devastating. No, I think they one wanted to one up the Legendary, or at the very least, separate themselves even more. I remember reading a quote, to paraphrase, "We're not going to bow down to Hollywood."
The height might be a good argument. Especially considering how he's only 10 meters taller. But as for the other abilities, that seems less like intentional sporting of abilities and more general, "Godzilla has crazy powers" mixed with Hideaki Anno's insanity.
This debate is something that eventually would happen and I want to let you know what I think and saw. First I seen the g14 movie and I have been a fan for over 35 years now and in my opinion it was ok. Godzilla 2014 is massive, but I did see new hd scenes of Shin Godzilla's atomic breath and I have to say I am extremely impress with its power. The most powerful Godzilla incarnation so far. That and Desugoji Godzilla used in Godzilla vs Destroyer is the most powerful atomic breath wise. This Shin Godzilla and his weapon is f###ing destructive as can be. With this in mind by far Shin Godzilla is much more powerful that g14. His atomic breath is gaseous and realistic looking but does not come off as being that powerful. Not compared to Shin Godzilla's. I will give it to Shin Godzilla.
^I'm going to wait until I see the full movie before I call the new atomic ray the most powerful next to Burning Godzilla's.
I mean, GMK Godzilla seemed to mini-nuke a few blocks and very easily vaporized Baragon--The other two monsters as well after only a couple of hits. And Final Wars Godzilla's ray was powerful enough to exit the Earth's atmosphere--That's not even including his Spiral Ray.
Shin Godzilla's ray is super powerful, clearly, but some of the past Godzillas did some crazy things with theirs.
The problem with ranking atomic breaths is you have to look at the context.
Shin Godzilla was in a solo movie and typically beams are ranked how they effect other monsters with the idea being Kaiju defense> buildings and basic military vehicles. That's why solo Godzilla's are so hard to look at and judge, for a title of Strongest.
Shin also has a caveat to using his breath, making it somewhat a double edged sword.
In the interest of considering which Godzilla is more powerful, I'll prefer to put aside Toho's claim that ShinGoji is the most powerful incarnation of Godzilla to date and look at the evidence regarding size, durability, weaknesses, abilities, and relevant aspects of their story-lines that has been presented to us so far:
Shin Godzilla (I'll address his abilities while trying to withhold any major spoilers or key plot points, but be forewarned nonetheless)
Size: The largest incarnation to date, Shin Godzilla has the upper hand as far as strictly size is concerned
Durability: Extremely durable hide, mutations including protective eye membranes, and takes small and large arms fire with no discernible reaction (this is more or less consistent with most iterations of Godzilla, with no significant feats yet)
Weaknesses: Briefly stated to limit the amount of information spoiled (SPOILERS), Shin Godzilla has very powerful offensive abilities, but utilizing them costs a physical toll (the extent of which you'll witness for yourself in the movie) along with other vulnerabilities key to the plot
Abilities: Breath capabilities ranging from gaseous emission, to fire breathing, to concentrated energy beam which appears to be extremely powerful against man-made structures, and can emit concentrated beams from various points on the body (similar to nuclear pulse on past iterations, but appears to be more concentrated; certainly seems more powerful, but again, costs a physical toll); destructive capability appears to be far more powerful than most predecessors
History: Shin Godzilla is a very recent mutation with an evolution ladder; withholding key plot elements, this Godzilla is comparably "young" but progresses through its various stages very quickly, suggesting room for growth but also a notable lack of experience combating near-power adversaries (this is further evidenced by a scene in which ShinGoji "figures out" how to use his powers); to summarize, ShinGoji has further potential but is very inexperienced fighting other kaiju - we not know his full potential
Now, for Legendary's Godzilla (I assume I can discuss this section more freely without concern of omitting spoilers):
Size: Formidable in apparent bulk, with arms that showcase several combative functions, but still smaller than ShinGoji
Durability: In the majority of G2014, Godzilla displays durability on par with most other iterations of Godzilla aside from two sequences; one taking a tank shell to his "gills" (weaknesses) and one surviving a nuclear blast (history); surviving a nuclear blast tops nearly every other Godzilla durability feat aside from surviving a black hole (GvMegaguirus) and an asteroid impact (GFW)
Weaknesses: LegeGoji shows a visible reaction when taking large arms fire to regions of his neck; however, the idea that this physically damages him contradicts the notion that he can survive a point blank nuclear explosion (history), so another explanation is required (we can only postulate - perhaps he inhaled the emissions and what we saw was LegeGoji turning his head and coughing); also weakness to the biological EMP produced by the MUTOs (history)
Abilities: Energy beam that appears (? - history) to be on the weaker spectrum of iterations, functional arms
History: The greater accumulation of information we have regarding LegeGoji allows us to understand how much we don't understand his full capabilities (similar to ShinGoji's growth potential), so this will be very lengthy. The main points to consider include his feat surviving a nuclear blast at point blank, EMP weakness, and energy beam, which are rather intertwined discussions.
Considering the nuclear survival feat absolutely requires suspension of disbelief for those who understand what surviving a nuclear blast entails; for those who do not have the full picture, allow me to elaborate to the extent of my understanding. A star attains fission through the force of gravity and its own mass and so burns at a relatively "low" temperature (around 8,000,000 degrees Celsius or 15,000,000 Fahrenheit for our sun in particular) over the course of billions of years; a nuclear blast is over in seconds and this significantly shorter reaction rate can only be achieved if the reaction temperature is much higher, by as much as a magnitude of ten (which literally ignites the surrounding atmosphere). And this is only the thermal output. For a one megaton blast, the gamma emissions will vaporize organic matter within a fifteen square kilometer (six square mile) area surrounding ground zero before any sensory input has time to reach the brain; how big was the blast depicted in G2014? To be specific, the intro sequence involved Godzilla tanking a point blank nuclear blast at the Bikini Atolls in 1954, the year of his appearance, which means the nuclear blast in question was produced by the "Castle Bravo" bomb - a fifteen megaton yield nuclear device (note that the naval officer in the movie inaccurately compared the yield of past and modern nuclear weapons). And we haven't begun to discuss the pressure wave or the gale force winds; for those victims who survive the gamma and thermal outputs, the pressure wave approaching miles from the epicenter is enough to induce bleeding from every orifice. That LegeGoji survived such a nuclear detonation at point blank makes the notion that a tank shell physically damaged him laughable, and requires another explanation (cough cough?). LegeGoji's durability is impossibly astounding for such a feat.
Now, the EMP weakness is described in the official novelization as a biological function that the MUTOs evolved to disable LegeGoji's ability to utilize his energy beam, as the two species were constantly at odds in prehistoric times. Putting the questions of whether this biological function can be replicated by humans or if it's a unique ability aside, we have to reconsider the output of LegeGoji's energy beam depicted in the movie. The movie portrayed the MUTOs, FEMUTO in particular, as walking, biological EMP emitters with a significant sphere of influence and we now know its primary evolutionary function was to prevent LegeGoji from using his energy beam. This in mind, LegeGoji's ability to surpass this kryptonite-like disability and still utilize his energy beam while in the exact vicinity of the FEMUTO suggests that he and his energy beam must be significantly more powerful than initial observation provides. Drawing again on the metaphorical comparison, if Superman is reduced to the strength of a human in the presence of kryptonite, we can only begin to imagine how many more orders of magnitude LegeGoji's energy beam's power actually is (and whether the sequels will reflect this or not).
And as a last observation, LegeGoji is a being that has survived since prehistoric times, which indicates immeasurable experience surviving on a planet that once was inhabited by similar organisms, for example the MUTOs. Note that MUTOs were parasitic hunters that would implant their eggs into others of Godzilla's kind. LegeGoji waking from eons of slumber to hunt down the MUTOs across an ocean displays remarkable confidence in his experience, as a (slightly exaggerated) comparison might be to that of Ripley hunting down two Xenomorphs. He undoubtedly has experience facing (and outlasting) his kaiju peers.
To recap, we have not fully witnessed either Godzilla's full potential, and there is an astounding gap (mostly a lack of knowledge as we wait for further expansion in either story-line) before we can fully expand on our comprehension of either iteration. This concession aside, and considering the available evidence I have laid out, what is your opinion?
That was an extremely detailed observation, and yes I fully agree with most of your points, and ShinGoji displayed some really extraordinary feats, while with LegendaryGoji we never really saw what he was fully capable of. I actually made a topic which brought up the question whether or not Legendary is the most powerful incarnation yet, but we just haven't seen enough, and what if the Mutos are really much stronger and powerful than we think, also given how he could survive an atomic blast nearly unscathed but a FeMuto can pierce his hid should show the power they possess. It really doesn't seem likely, in fact it seems ludicrous and the fact that he will be taking on Kong in a few years doesn't really add alot of weight to that argument, but hell, if he is gonna take on Ghidorah, Rodan and Mothra, and win, Kong is gonna have to step his game up ALOT. We will have to see if Shin gets a sequel and what he does there, and we will just have to see what Legendary can pull up in a few years. In a melee combat situation, I might just give Legendary a very, very, very slight advantage (like a 50.5/49.5), but if Shin has to use his Atomic Ray, he will take it, and given Legendary's durability, he might be able to tank more than what we expect.
"I must become someone else. I must become...something else!"
All the way Shin gojira....why first shin gojira is TOKUSATSU which is what godzilla is really good at.While the CGI for legendary's godzilla is amazing....no CG godzilla can rivaralize with the tokusatsu godzilla EVER.Talking about design...well legendary godzilla is pretty cool BUT shin gojira sets as a homage to the original 54...so in my opinion...shin gojira's design is the best.Now lets talk about abilities.Legendary godzilla is agile and strong yes....but if you hit him hard in the the gills he is vulnerable....while shin doesn't have a weak spot and legendary's atomic breath is strong...but not as powerful and destructive as shin.Well this is my opinion and as someone says "stay big Gfans"
"A living nuclear weapon destined to walk the Earth forever. Indestructible. A victim of the modern nuclear age."
Here is my two-cents about this discussion.
G14's best chance will always be a melee type battle since that what got him through against MUTOs while Shin is still unproven in that regard. On the other hand, Shin G had that miles long lightsaber of an atomic breath that is one of the most destructive seen displayed by any version of Godzilla.
Regarding durability, I will base it on both films. Shin G's black smog that turned to flames sort of reminisce a nuke explosion. Something that G14 has tanked repeatedly on the pacific. Shin G on the other hand was injured by 2 bombs (I believe MOABs) dropped by a b2 bomber. Doing the math, G14 tanked nukes. Shin G went critical when he got hit by lesser bombs. So I also have a question mark about his durability there.
Here's where I will base my choice, the intangible that I think will be the factor tide of the fight. Shin G, when he faced the military just tanked everything, whether he knows how invulnerable he is or he just doesn't care, he just let every offense come his way. The only time he unleashed (evolved?) the atomic breath was when his life was in mortal danger. If he chose to let G14 come close to him then he will be trapped in a grappling match where his stubby arms will not help him a bit. In a close fight where they are face to face, his spine beams will not be of any help as well. His tail perhaps, but then again, it can be a liability in a inside brawl. If G14 is smart enough to rip a MUTO's mouth open and blow an atomic breath at point blank range, he can do so with the opening in the tail.
Sure, Shin G can also choose to floor it and blast G14 with all his might just to keep him from a distance. What if he ran low on energy and G14's durability let him hang through it and now makes a charge to brawl?
I pick G14 in this match.
^The bombs in Shin Godzilla landed directly on his back. Don't know where the bombs Legendary's Godzilla took landed.
Shin Godzilla has a slight size advantage, and definitely has more ranged weapons. Legenday's Godzilla has the advantage in melee combat. I'd say if Legendary's Godzilla can get past Shin Godzilla's ranged attacks, he might be able to defeat him. Also, if Shin Godzilla runs low on energy, he enters a state of dormancy, allowing Legendary's Godzilla to strike.
If Shin Godzilla goes the entire battle without evolving or attempting to spawn offspring, then I'd say Legendary's Godzilla would probably win.
“Banana oil.”- George Takei, Gigantis: The Fire Monster
I mean in terms of size, power and intelligence, they are almost in a tie. G14 has the strength, Shin has the powerful atomic breath and he has the size. In terms of intelligence they well are almost the same. G14 is like Gamera after several fights with his opponent he evaluates a way to defeat him/her/it. In the other hand Shin relies on instinct. In the movie when they wake him up and bomb him, Shin's panicking so he uses his atomic breath. I would say that this fight would end up like King Kong VS Godzilla just a tie.
Dinosaurs incredible creatures who roamed the Earth 65 million years ago. Never had nature been filled with so much terror and beauty...
I just saw Shin-Godzilla in the theater. Phenomenal movie in my opinion, I really enjoyed it. Now, with that said, I am ready for a re-analysis on G14 vs G16.
Shin-Gojira is a destructive, near-unstoppable, atomic force. I think everybody that's gonna see the movie has already seen it, and everybody who hasn't has read spoilers--so--there will be spoilers. His purple beam is just, unrivaled. The destructive, godlike power that it has is just mind-boggling.
My jaw dropped when he sets the entirety of Tokyo Central ablaze--but sadly then, goes dormant. Shin-Gojira, despite his unbelievable power--is still beatable. Artillery missiles made his final form ooze blood, and he bellowed when they hit him--actually initiating his first atomic rampage.
He shrugged off bullets and tank rounds like nothing--but artillery missiles, train bombs, and buildings eventually toppled the beast--literally. People complained about Godzilla 2014 being knocked over by a skyscraper twice-his size, but this Godzilla was toppled by multiple buildings--where is the insulting of this? G14 was knocked over after battling the MUTOS for days, whilst G16 had just been awoken--and was already expelling his energy and going nuts, before train bombs staggered him, and two buildings collapsed him.
Despite this, let's move on to the next issue; Godzilla 2016 lacks endurance. He has the strongest beam in the Godzilla series, but he can only use it for a limited amount of time. I'm not boasting G14, he barely used his beam (although you could say this was because of the MUTOS hindering him), but nearly all the Godzillas have some level of infinite beam--G16 doesn't.
The beam serves as a sort of expelling of over radiation, and when he exhausts it, he falls asleep--FOR, 15, DAYS! This right here, this, 15 days of dormancy--is what loses the battle for G16. His limited beam, practically vestigial arms, thunder thighs, and lack of mobility lose the battle for him in favor of Godzilla 2014.
Godzilla 2014 is well rounded, he is a muscular powerhouse--who seldom gets damaged by anything but his natural enemies. If he could survive G16's barrage of beams (which is highly likely considering his brain power), all he would have to do was tackle G16--take him down, rip off his mandible jaw, and he's done.
If G16 does hit him with the beams, it's most likely over--that beam is just hax. But, if G14 can outmaneuver, or just tank the back, spine, and jaw beams--and get close enough to do physical combat with G16, he can, and will end him. Shin-Gojira has the strongest beam in Godzilla history, but once he exhausts it--kaput are his chances of doing anything to any Godzilla.
Godzilla 2014 is actually a special case, because of his melee ability he can handle what the likes of Heisei, and Millenium could not--he can get up close, and knock over this lumbering tower of Hell. The Heisei and Millenium Godzillas would be decimated by Shin-Gojira's beam, but G14--he could, and would defeat him.
"...I hope they remember you."-Thanos
It took more than one skyscraper to topple Shin Godzilla. In fact, it took 4. The first two buildings toppled onto him and yet he was still standing until two more fell on him. Also, each skyscraper was taller than him.
When you're shooting more than 15 lasers out of your back, I'm pretty sure that's taking more energy out of you regardless on how you look at.
Falling asleep? No. He was still awake. Just recharging his energy. Similar to how Gamera did in the heisei series. Plus, he was still able to detect moving objects getting close to him and he still was able to knock them out. His power? He was draining the city of its energy. That's why the lights were going out. Could 2014 do that? No.
2014 roared in pain by those missiles that supposedly hit him in the gills as if that was a weak point. Fyi, Shin Godzilla has gills also, yet took bombs, missiles, and machine gun fire directly to the face and had nothing done to him and he didn't even act like anything had happened.
Also, going back to the "nap." wut? 2014 didn't nap? We start of in 54 and don't see him again until 2014? That's a 60 year nap then, and another nap after his final battle. Yet it's not really the first time in either film Godzilla has taken a nap. Sea monster, 54, son of Godzilla just to name a few btw.
I doubt we'll know anything about close combat for Shin Godzilla until he actually fights other monsters so in technicality, poor judgement right now.
Shin-Gojira is inept at close combat, don't even suggest it. Godzilla 2014 did not nap, he vanished until he was needed--and was defeated at the end of the battle with the MUTOS--which I might tell you, lasted days.
Excuse me, WEEKS, of hunting--and then days of battling. Shin-Gojira is hax (but I understand, not to be insulting, that you're a Japanese Godzilla fan--no matter if the version is good or worse), but Godzilla 2014 has just enough durability, strength, and perseverance to outlast him--and topple him.
Once Shin-Gojira expells his energy, which happens in less than five-minutes, he is out cold. Godzilla 2014 is a fighter, he can take him. I just saw Shin-Gojira today, I know what I saw lol.
"...I hope they remember you."-Thanos
And? I've seen it 3 times.
Weeks of hunting? No. Daytime all the way up to the final battle. You are wrong about that. 2 days maximum due to the Hawaii battle but that was at nightime anyway.
Insulting? Negative again. If anything, it's a true hypocrite when someone says "not to be insulting if you're a Japanese Godzilla fan" do you not understand how lost that comment is? Isn't Japan where Godzilla began and belongs anyway? I mean, the Japanese are the ones who made Godzilla in the beginning.
Yes, Godzilla 2014 DID take a nap. He was out after he collapsed in the city. Eyes shut don't lie there, Gg. Did you ever stop to ask yourself "ok the film takes place in 1954 after a sub reached the lower depths and awakened him, we skip to the year 1999 with no trace or sign of him until we finally skip to the year 2014 what exactly was he doing those 60 years?" apparently not.
Sure, Shin Godzilla was drained out of power but, again, they actually confirm in the film he was recharging. That's why they hit him with the first wave of train bombs. It was to speed his energy up a little quicker to then drain him out of it with 7 squadrons of drones which btw, still managed to hit his body with missiles and still did nothing to hurt him.
He was recharging for 15 days. I can't talk with someone who gets so triggered, over anything against this film. It was a really good movie, I enjoyed that--and a really good Godzilla! But, his abilities, as I discussed with a couple of my friends--could not outlast the physical onslaught of Godzilla 2014.
"...I hope they remember you."-Thanos
Gg, you are the one who gets triggered and mad. You said so yourself on the last debate we had and the thread was locked down. I thought we were having a good debate on both of these threads but apparently not.
... I agree with Huge Ben GG
Dinosaurs incredible creatures who roamed the Earth 65 million years ago. Never had nature been filled with so much terror and beauty...
It's a toss-up, really. Either side has an advantage in one area or another. Shin Godzilla has lower durability and physical demonstrated prowess, not really being able to do much with his body. However, those damn Evangelion-beams are a real nutcase, able to slice through buildings with the ease and destructiveness of an anime character. That, and he's an ever-evolving mass of nightmare fuel D:
Of course, Legendary Godzilla has survived multiple nuclear strikes without injury, the Permian extinction (direct hit or not), is immune to the firepower that managed to draw blood from the Japanese monster (aside from the gills, which still required concentrated fire from an entire naval fleet to even get a reaction and ultimately did no lasting damage). As well, he's got massive physical strength and dexterity, able to use his jaws and arms to great effect against big, strong targets as well as small, nimble ones.
Shin Godzilla runs out of steam extremely quickly from atomic beam overusage, and actually requires cooling periods due to his nuclear fission causing overheating. He's also rather clumsy on his feet for such a large monster, with massive train bombs actually budging him. Of course, Legendary Godzilla's no spry monster himself, and a good enough beating after several days of swimming and fighting sent him napping for the night.
However, given the evidence, I'm confident in saying that Legendary Godzilla takes this by a hair, if only because he has greater demonstrated durability than many other film incarnations, along with superb physicality. But Shin Godzilla most definitely has the capacity to put him down, should he manage to keep him at a distance.
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