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The chances of an actual Kaiju

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Lewshizz

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 2:13 PM

What do you guys think?

With the advances in technology and instability what are your thoughts on how the chances of a titanic mutation to occur.

remember to factor death from radiation which would clearly cut back on chances but it could be possible as anything else.

finally the last chance of a kaiju would be that they could be our public first contact and not a almond eyed midgit alien

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24 Responses to The chances of an actual Kaiju

Duratok

Mothra LarvaeMember2 XPMar-13-2014 2:20 PM

0%. Anything that large would practically liquify under its own weight.

 

This link gets into the science of how this is impossible.    http://www.apeculture.com/movies/godzilla.htm

MonsterMovieguy

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 2:23 PM

In the future, sadly yes. Because we might find a way to cure radiation poisning and spread across the world. Then, we'll figure out that something went wrong with an animal and caused a mutation. So we might have one in the far future (2040 or later)

"By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power. But they lie! They do not fulfill that promise. They never will! Dictators free themselves but they enslave the people."

Lewshizz

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 2:24 PM

That is a really good link, I like your answer. I found it the same way.

Still would be cool (as cool as death can get heheheheh)

Lewshizz

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 2:26 PM

and there too is a good point monstermovieguy, the thing about the liquified actions are that adaption to accommodate such masses would allow the creature to theoretically remain stable.

MonsterMovieguy

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 2:34 PM

Lewshizz, that's pretty bad if the mutation actually did happen and I didn't finish it. Because nuclear testing on a test subject (alligator, turtle, guinea pig, horse, cow, etc.) caused the DNA to change.

"By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power. But they lie! They do not fulfill that promise. They never will! Dictators free themselves but they enslave the people."

Lewshizz

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 2:38 PM

Yea, I know it's bad. Im not one of those blind men who think. It would be so cool if godzilla was really real! There are obvious things bad, and others that follow.

obvious: big lizard attack city

Country pay money to fix city

big lizard rinses and repeats

we lose money

military dwindles

most importantly DEATH. Death is not cool.

aftermath: lingering radiation

economic drops

 

MonsterMovieguy

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 2:41 PM

And Mankind goes bye-bye!

"By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power. But they lie! They do not fulfill that promise. They never will! Dictators free themselves but they enslave the people."

Madison

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 2:42 PM

The chances are infestimally small. 0.000000000000000000000000000000000001% kinda small. 

When it comes to science, I don't like to 100% rulle things out, but still, this basically never going to happen. 

And if it did, it would not be an accident, nor would it be through radiation. It would be something that we did on purpose, through genetic engineering. 

While the science is still a long ways off, and we haven't found any good enough samples to put together a whole creature, scientists have been working on re-creating dinosaurs. So it would be something like that, if it ever happened. 

Some (very few) dinosaur fossils that we uncover actually have some "soft" tissue remains, which contains some DNA proteins. Not a full strand, not enough to work with. But as we find more specimens, we can get closer to getting a more complete chain. 

The 'plugging holes' theory from Jurassic Park could be used to plug gaps, assuming there were only a few gaps. Not from frogs, but from de-evoling contemporary relatives. In chickens, and other types of birds, we have found 'genetic memory' of ancestor creatures, in essentially inactive genes. But the genes are still there from a still unknown number of ancestors. 

Scientists have found a way to activate these old genes in some birds, causing baby birds to be born with scales, teeth, and even tails. Granted, they've never been able to hatch a LIVE bird this way, they all have died during development. But live or not, by identifying "ancestor sequences" of the right specimens, you could then theoretically plug in gaps that were missing from the "soft" tissue samples found in fossils. 

You would have to know which sequences to use, as well as be sure you had matched the fossil ancestor with it's ACTUAL contemporary relative ancestor sequence....a "close enough" sequence just won't cut it at this time. 

So yeah, it's complicated, it's a stretch, it will take time, but it could maybe be done. Even if it was done though, the end result would be something much more similar to a dinosaur, than a giant monster. 

Here's a start to finding more info if you're interested: 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/dinosaurs/10533240/A-real-life-Jurassic-Park-Birds-could-be-theoretically-de-evolved-back-to-dinosaurs.html

Lewshizz

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 2:53 PM

For my first thread it sure as hell shot out (yeah I reply to others all the time but my first). Madison your explination was fantastic. I actually learned something from all the guys who have replied. 

I feel like a kaiju in reality is bad news bears anyway so the mad scientists who decide to make it a reality better have an off switch on it....

kaijugroupie84

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 3:43 PM

Not saying I'm sold on it, but if you subscribe to the Multi-Verse theory, in a parallel universe, there are Kaiju.

Dragonlord Tevin

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 3:55 PM

Holy crap DURATOK thnx for that link man, this totally explains everything I need to correct about the Japaneses' failure perspections of Godzilla.  

I bet Legendary and Gareth read something like this to know and understand how to do Godzilla right haha

Duratok

Mothra LarvaeMember2 XPMar-13-2014 4:07 PM

@Dragonlord Tevin

The American Godzillas are just as impossible. They're simply too huge to exist.

Dragonlord Tevin

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 4:13 PM

duratok

Ik they are, but theyre just explaining it in a more sensible way for us to just let it flow with the fakeness you know, cuz looking at the trailers right now, Godzilla moves slow, he looks like he's super heavy, and idk, just the way hes being portrayed makes it look believable enough to not really complain about the fakeness

kaijudinosaurfan12345

Mothra LarvaeMember1 XPMar-13-2014 4:34 PM

it would be cool but i itdid happen you can find me in my zombie apoclaypse fortress

TheGMan123

TitanosaurusMember729 XPMar-13-2014 4:58 PM

Theoretically, you can make anything almost as large as you want if you do it under the right conditions over time with resources and substituting materials in the process so that it'll work. It's extremely hard to do, but never quite impossible. Though, the chances of such conditions being achieved in nature or artificially created are astronomically low.

I actually did come up with some explanations in an alternate universe I made up that allowed a giant monster/robot to exist even factoring in all those fancy physics laws.

Basically, creating a sort of natural/artificial repulsive field of a strong enough magnitude throughout the body would allow bodily structures to withstand impossibly large stresses, as well as provide a defense/offense rivalling a standard Kaiju's or surpassing it. Additionally, if focused outwards in certain instances, it could support any body structure/proportions and prevent the being from sinking into the ground like mud.

Of course, this is where the natural power plant organ system comes into play, generating such a field and maintaining/concentrating it in specific ways befitting the creatures internal/external structure. This also provides a sort of "shield" that surrounds the monsters skin, and is impervious to nearly all conventional forms of weaponry, excluding excessive use of nukes.

This also plays into kaiju/robot battles, whereby having a similar field could act like how mucous on a clownfish does with sea anemones, allowing whatever, be it missiles or beams or claws or fists or whatever else to bypass the "shield", thus explaining how only similarly sized creatures/mechs are the best weapons against another.

This is all just my personal take with no professional back-up for usage in an alternate universe I created. The concept does use the soul concept a bit too, so take it as you will. It's part of why I have Godzilla in this unviverse being about 2km tall, so shut up! I like my idea, and it shall only be mine! I trademark this, and it will be mine forever!

Madison

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 5:30 PM

It wouldn't even need to be as complicated as that THEGMAN123. I mean, I'm not a supporter of the belief that a kaiju sized creature does/can/will ever exist. 

But I still object to the 'size' argument as a reason why not. Sure, there are size limitations due to how physics would affect a creature with similar properties to most modern mammals or reptiles. 

However, using the same laws of physics we have now, they wouldn't be as crippling to other types of earth creatures, such as certain kinds of extremophiles or even insects. 

Earth is home to creatures which can breath acid, resist extreme temperature ranges, survive in total darkness, and even survive in outer space. Granted, most of these creatures are pretty small, but that's besides the point. 

When people start talking about the practicality of a creature which is as enormous as a kaiju would be, we typically come up with limitations based our undersanding physiology of familiar animals. But there are creatures which do exist with radical metalobisms, incredible bone density, lack of a need for large amounts of oxygen, and many other things. 

Granted, no single creature shares ALL of those traits, but those traits are physically possible on earth. And if you blew them up to Monster sized proportions, such an animal wouldn't have to deal with overheating, structural weakness, or a lack of oxygen or food, even at that size. 

Similar to how scientists have a warped perspective of planets capable of sustaining 'life'. We only consider ones that have things like water, reasonable temperatures, oxygen, sunlight, reasonable atmospheric densities, and reasonable gravitational limits. But here on earth we have lifeforms that DO NOT need any of those things. Just because WE do, doesn't mean that 'life' does. Not all life is restricted by the same parameters.

Anyways, that's enough of my rambling for now. 

Basically my point is A: There are no real giant monsters. 

But B: the reason there are no giant monsters has nothing to do with the size of them. Sure, a Godzilla-sized Crocodile would just insta-die at that size. But there are plenty of organisms with properties that would allow them to survive the journey to gigantism much more gracefully. 

 

TW_G-Fan2014

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 6:25 PM

Kaiju are 100% impossible.

They cannot exist. Not in this world, nor the next thanks to the realities of the laws of physics.

If you don't understand why, then read this: http://www.angelfire.com/ego/g_saga/kaijubiologyarticle.html

As much as we love Kaiju, they are impossible and will never exist.

ゴジラ 2014 Rules

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 6:33 PM

will my post on Godzilla could be real was locked and so i have to say no and someone can say that is really stupid

Madison

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 7:32 PM

@ TW_G-FAN2014

Before I begin, I would like to reiterate that I do not believe Kaiju are real. I don't think they ever existed in the past. And I don't they will come into being in the future. 

But that article makes same kind of faulty analysis about size that many of the posters here do. 

That article talks about the weight regular animal bone can support

It talks about 'x' rate metabolism in terms of required energy and feeding

It talks about the body density of a human as it relates to swimming.

It talks about the ability to survive in a vacuum

etc., so on and so forth. 

NONE of those things are REQUIREMENTS for creatures in nature. It doesn't have to be animal bone, there are several other internal structures in the natural world which can support more weight. Metabolism rates even in warm blooded mammals is EXTREMELY variable, even before you get into things like reptiles, and other more exotic creatures. Body density of a human? Do I even need to explain how that's an overlimiting parameter when trying to describe the possiblity for exotic life? THERE ARE animals on earth which can survive in a vacuum. They discovered a new one just last year in fact.

A creature, in nature, using traits from animals that already exist, CAN physically be as big as a Kaiju, and not suffer any major biological complications due to the laws of physics or biology. 

I mean, one doesn't exist. But one physically CAN. It's not ruled out by Newton or anything like that. 

I take further objection with that article for it's straw man arguments. It takes extreme points that would never be true in the first place, and then refutes them as if it was a genuine limit if it occurred nature. 

Like it takes comic book stats, presents those comic book facts as 'nature facts', and then explains why those 'nature facts' aren't possible. 

If we are going to have a serious discussion about the potential physiology of a REAL animal, we shouldn't be tied to comic book stipulations, which that article attempts to do on several occassions. 

For example, it says the Godzilla wiki states that Godzilla is 20,000 tons. Then it goes on to explain how difficult it would be for regular bone to sustain 20,000 tons. 

Except, no Kaiju would ever actually be 20,000 tons, even it was real. That's a comic book fact, not a nature one. 

Even the largest sauropods, standing over 50 feet tall, and 100 feet long, were only 20-40 tons. Godzilla is 100-350 feet tall depending on the film. That's only 2x-7x taller. So it's weight then (assuming Sauropodesque physiology....which is a fallible assumption to make) would only be 40-280 tons. I understand I'm doing rough, imprecise guessing here, but the point remains, 40-280 is nowhere 20,000. 40-280 is a MUCH more reasonable weight to sustain, even if constricting yourself to animal bone. But the article doesn't talk about that, because it prefers to assume the 20,000 number, since the 20,000 number is easier to argue against. It's hella cherry picking basically. 

Basically it sacrifices legitimacy by attempting to use rhetoric to score argumentative points, rather than instead of having an objective conversation. 

Again, Kaiju aren't real. But this whole "they're too big to be real" argument is misguided.

Linkzilla

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 7:53 PM

@MADISON From reading what you said about Godzilla's height, it seems that you have not heard of the square/cube law. I'm not going to bother with going into detail about exactly what it is, but it basically means that 20,000 tons is probably closer to a realistic weight for a creature of Godzilla's size than 280 tons.

Madison

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 8:12 PM

Yeah, I'm not going to try and defend the 280 ton number. I'm not throwing it out there to say that it's actually a Godzilla sized creature's weight. In fact, just between this post and the last, I started to look up estimated weights of animals at various heights, and 400 tons seems like a commonly used number for a 100 foot creature, though I imagine the 'margin of error' on such estimates is pretty large.

The actual weight is less important than the fact that the article was using easy to criticize comic book stats to make points, rather than being fair minded about it's argument. That's more what bothered me about it than anything else. 

As far as the 'Square/Cube' law is concerned, I understand the general principle, that volume grows faster than area as an object gets bigger.......but it only works in predictable ratios if you know the density of the material you are working with. So it would only give you an exact estimated weight if you knew the density of the animal which was getting bigger. Which, the main part of my first post in the thread was the density is incredibly variable based on what type of animal, with a very wide possiblity of functional ranges.

That, and while I don't actually know the FORMULA itself, I am heavily skeptical that it would spit out a number of 20,000 tons, even if you did use the density of an animal like a crocodile or a person, sprouted up to 350 feet. Maybe it would....but I doubt it. 

Linkzilla

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-13-2014 8:35 PM

That article is not supposed to be a serious argument about whether or not a kaiju could really exist, it was just made to provide a pseudo-scientific explanation for specifically the kaiju of the Godzilla series, basically just for fun. It's not actually trying to make any point.

TheGMan123

TitanosaurusMember729 XPMar-14-2014 6:09 AM

Hey, guys, this is all supposed to be in good fun! Sure, it's extremely  unlikely for any real-life Kaiju to exist, but that doesn't mean we can't speculate and form our own theories to try and justify it. For fun. Emphasis on "fun". I mean, just look at my own take for how they could exist in MY own universe! Is it crazy and ludicrous? Yes. Is it a Kaiju-sized amount of fun to do? DEFINITELY.

MonsterMovieguy

Mothra LarvaeMember0 XPMar-14-2014 7:27 AM

Well, in an alternate universe, Kaiju as we speak are destroying a city.

"By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power. But they lie! They do not fulfill that promise. They never will! Dictators free themselves but they enslave the people."

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