Upon reading Adam Wingard's interview, this insert peaked my interest.
“I do want there to be a winner, the original film (King Kong vs. Godzilla ) was very fun, but you feel a little let down that the movie doesn’t take a definitive stance. People are still debating now who won in that original movie, you know.
So I thought to ask you all who do you think won in that movie? Godzilla or King Kong, and why you thought they won.
Because 54 died, and because the 2nd Godzilla came from an iceberg where the last film left him trapped. And im only talking about the showa generation and series about my theory.
Your talking about the 4th generation millennium series, I understand what your trying to say there about 54 staying alive somehow in that movie. But that's a different point from where Im coming from here. Im talking about the chronological order of the Showa series films that would give my theory any ground.
we are however getting way off topic, and i fear others don't want to join in on this topic and question. I can see we just don't see eye to eye on what I was trying to say about the possibility of the movie having a draw and the reason why. I am however great full for your input and look forward to having more conversations with you.
I still would like to hear from other people on what they think of the outcome in the movie.
@Huge-Ben I'm not sure if you read or understood anything I said.
"Generation" in this context doesn't refer to what era it is. Only the 1954 Godzilla is "first generation," 1955-1972 is called "second generation," and 1984-1995 is called "third generation." Any Japanese book about the franchise will tell you this. This same logic is applied to all the other kaiju: 1955 Anguirus is called "first generation" and 1968-75 is called "second generation." Mothra 1961-64 is "first generation," her larvae are "second generation," and the Mothra from Destroy All Monsters is "third generation." It's a completely separate concept from the Showa, Heisei and Millennium eras. Multiple generations of kaiju can appear in the same era.
Also, I'm afraid you're incorrect about where Godzilla was frozen in 1955. I'll admit I wasn't sure exactly where he was frozen, but upon rewatching the film I noticed that Tsukioka is transferred to Hokkaido, and is scouting the waters in the area when he sees Godzilla. Godzilla is spotted and frozen in the Kuril Islands, an island chain located northeast of Hokkaido and south of Russia. According to Tanaka, after being frozen the water subsequently carried Godzilla towards the North Pole. King Kong vs. Godzilla does acknowledge the events of Godzilla Raids Again, because the characters know Godzilla was frozen, and lands in Hokkaido when he reaches Japan. It may not be completely explicit, but it's very much there. Why else would they go to the lengths of having Godzilla be an established character already and having him emerge from an icy prison north of Japan if they didn't intend to pick up from Godzilla Raids Again? There's absolutely nothing to suggest it's the same Godzilla from 1954, and sources from Toho explicitly say it isn't the same Godzilla.
The Rodan that appears in Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster isn't confirmed to be one of the 1956 Rodans. The two Rodans from 1956 are called "first generation Rodan" in official books, while the one from 1964 is called "second generation," though its identity is unclear. It's entirely possible one of the Rodans survived the climax of the original film, but equally possible this Rodan is one of their offspring. All we know is that the events of the original Rodan are held canon in Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster. The same holds true for the entirety of the Showa series. The continuity is generally loose and explicit references are few and far between, but Toho says all the Showa Godzilla films, along with at least Rodan and Mothra, are part of the same continuity. The Godzilla introduced in Godzilla Raids Again is the Second Generation Godzilla, and he reappeared in every subsequent film through Terror of Mechagodzilla.
To avoid going further off-topic, I think I'll start a separate blog post running down the continuity.
I know I'm not incorrect because I too, watched the original Japanese version of raids again last night from classic media. You simply can not rewrite your own input to make a back up claim. That's cherrypicking. It is Tsukioka and Kobayashi who confirm he's at the opposite side of the arctic. Why do you think Hideami says "You'll be entering the other country."?
You're also incorrect about Rodan not resurrecting. It is the Princess that confirms that the volcano was reviving the original Rodan. Go back and watch the original Japanese version yourself.
While the Princess is a prophetess, she gives very clear warning that the gases and such from the volcano are in fact resurrecting the original Rodan. It's there in the films, your sources are wrong.
You are correct in the generation stuff. I was wrong, but, How did they know who Rodan was if he didn't exist or even Mothra before hand? They were not apart of the Godzilla series until they made them crossover. It's all there in the films. The films prove my point.
All sources explicitly say Godzilla was trapped in the Kuril Islands in 1955. I don't remember any mention of Godzilla being near Korea in Godzilla Raids Again. Tsukioka and Kobayashi are working from Hokkaido, and logic would dictate they are scouting the waters near Hokkaido, which are cold and full of icy islands. By "other country" Hidemi likely means Russia. Unless I'm blatantly missing something, in which case it would be a retcon on Toho's part.
I know Selina Salno says Rodan was "resurrected." I even said that in my previous post. That's the strongest piece of evidence that it is meant to be a 1956 Rodan. However sources still call him "Second Generation," and there are official books that acknowledge the possibility it could be the First Generations' offspring.
Rodan and Mothra were not produced with the intention of being part of the Godzilla series, but when they crossed over all Toho had to do was add small nods to those films' events to weld the continuities together. In Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster, the characters know what Rodan is because it was written with the intention of Rodan having happened. In Mothra vs. Godzilla, the characters know what Mothra is for the same reason.
@King Of The Monsters, thank you for clearing that up.
I'm learning all kinds of lingo in these conversations.
So even though my theory now has some ground. Still a fan theory and has no real impact on the real context of the films.
I rewatched the scenes in question from Godzilla Raids Again more closely. Tsukioka says the island is Kamiko Island, but this island seems to be completely fictional, as I've received no results from searching its English or Japanese names. A few scenes later as the JSDF is planning its strike against Godzilla, you can see the character Tajima pointing to a map to show his men Godzilla's location. If you pause it at exactly 1:03:52 on the DVD, you can get a decent look at the map, and it appears to be a map of Hokkaido. Tajima was pointing directly north of Hokkaido on this map, which is the location of the Kuril Islands. That would definitely support the sources that say Godzilla was frozen in the Kuril Islands, and would make sense considering Tsukioka, Kobayashi and the JSDF are launching from Hokkaido. The JSDF even send ships to the island from Hokkaido, which would take a long time if they were sending them all the way to Korea instead of the Kuril Islands.
@Huge-Ben, I think I might actually know where this confusion is coming from. It seems you believe Kamiko Island is said to be near Kurashima Island, which is a real island located near North Korea as you've said. However, I don't think they say Kamiko Island is near Kurashima, they might say it's near Kurirushima, which is a Japanese name for the Kuril Islands that sounds similar to "Kurashima."
Since you can't find it on the map, I'll gladly help.
Also, Godzilla in Godzilla raids again attacked Osaka. That is a little further away from Hokkaido. Tsukioka and Kobayashi work in Hokkaido, that much is true, but even if Kamiko Island is fictional or not, the point is that is where Godzilla was last seen and heading towards. If Kamiko Island is the same island as Kamiko-Shima, like my Japanese co-workers are implying, then it seems to me that maybe, just maybe, that is where Godzilla raids again ends.
The issue is I don't believe the Kamiko Island in the film is the same real-life Kamiko Island you are talking about. It may be a completely fictional island that happens to share its name with a real one located in a different location. Godzilla being in Osaka previously isn't an issue because Godzilla can swim over great distances, and there is quite a big time skip between when he defeats Anguirus and is next sighted. It's not that far-fetched for him to have swam all the way to the Hokkaido area in that time.
And the facts are that sources say Godzilla was frozen in the Kurile Islands, Tajima is pointing where the Kuril Islands are located on a map in the film, the characters that go after Godzilla in the climax all launch from Hokkaido, which is near the Kurile Islands, and the fictional Kamiko Island is cold and covered in ice, typical of many of the islands located in that area. Combine that with Toho saying the 1962 Godzilla is the same Godzilla from 1955, and to me it all points to the intention being that Godzilla was frozen north of Hokkaido. Hidemi's worry that Tsukioka will be "entering the other country" also makes sense, because the Kurile Islands are disputed territory between Japan and Russia.
Then that's your problem. Why even mention it in the film if it doesn't exist? Again, that is cherry picking. Godzilla is a cold blooded animal as Akira Ifukube described him. Why swim to the arctic when you're a cold blooded animal?
For once, I have to follow up with the most up to date book from Toho. The all Kaiju encyclopedia. This book alone, along with a few other books I own go completely against your sources. If you having an issue that perhaps it's not the same island is going over, then again, my books back up what we're talking about. The fact is, the island is real whether you like it or not.
I don't get what you're trying to say. There are plenty of fictional islands in the films that are given names (Odo Island, Iwato Island, Solgell Island, etc.), and the fact that a tiny obscure island sharing the name of this fictional island exists in real life isn't that surprising. A great current example is Isla de Mona from Godzilla: King of the Monsters. It's a fictional Mexican island in the film, but is also the name of a real-life Puerto Rican island. I'm not denying that Kamiko Island exists, I'm just saying it isn't the same island from the climax of Godzilla Raids Again.
Perhaps you'd like to show me some screenshots or quotes from your book that definitively "go against" my sources, which include Tomoyuki Tanaka's Definitive Godzilla Introduction , Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah Super Complete Works, Godzilla 1954-1999 Super Complete Works, Godzilla Dictionary, and the All Toho Monsters Dictionary (I have all the Japanese titles for these books on-hand, but for some reason it won't let me post with Japanese text). These sources all explicitly call the Godzilla from 1955-onward "Second Generation Godzilla", meaning 1962 and 1955 are the same Godzilla. Tanaka's book also says Godzilla was frozen in the Kuril Islands and floated to the North Pole, easily explaining how King Kong vs. Godzilla connects to Raids Again.
In the scene where Tsukioka gives his position, he also gives his latitude and longitude: 148 degrees east, 53 degrees north. If you plug that in, guess where it takes you. The Sea of Okhotsk, north of the Kuril Islands and between Hokkaido and Russia.
What's more, "Kamiko Island" may be a subtitle error from Classic Media's DVD release. All the Japanese sources I see call the island "Miko Island" (Miko-jima) instead of Kamiko Island, and I can just barely hear Tsukioka say "Miko-jima" at 1:02:50 in the DVD, though I can't confirm he doesn't say "Kamiko-jima."
You keep going back to everything I've already stated. First you agree and now disagree. Which is it? We've come to accept that the island is real. I'll admit you own a few books that I don't, but I'll gladly share what I do own. The authentic Godzilla encyclopedia, The unpublished material and resource book produced by Tomoyuki Tanaka, the All Toho Kaiju encyclopedia, funny we share the same book because this book proves that Rodan revived in 64 Which Shinichi Sekizawa retconned that fact, the Heisei perfection resource and guide book, 60 year history of Toho special effects resource book, and the Perfect history of Toho special effects resource book, the chronicle history of Godzilla book, the entertainment bible of Godzilla #41, and last but not least, the Godzilla graphic collection. Not to mention I've placed my orders for the DNA of tokusatsu book and The life of Ishiro Honda from Godzilla to Kurasawa book. If you want to see pictures of each, please feel free to contact me on my Twitter account. @thebigbadben90 is my account.
^Yeah when you bring up time codes off a movie you know it's getting deep. I'm sorry Huge-Ben, but I must agree with The King Of The Monsters. Hearing the commentary on Godzilla Raids Again they even say that this Godzilla is the one that carries on into the rest of the Showa series. I have the Godzilla compendium(if you consider it any source of info, I sure do) it also says that this Godzilla is the one that carries on in the series. He is credited throughout the series. Honestly as a kid I saw that this Godzilla was the same one throughout the series. Are we even still talking about that anymore? Or has the island Godzilla trapped on in 55 more relevant?
The Godzilla compendium is a fun throw away book. Although Tomoyuki Tanaka says one thing doesn't hold much merit to it. The thing is, these movies were written by different script writers and screen writers. Going back on Godzilla raids again, while the coordinates are there, he specifically said he couldn't confirm if Tsukioka said "kamiko-jima" or not. That's adding your own input to it. While there's a possibility that the subtitles could be wrong, I seriously doubt that is the case. Again, going off the film alone, the pure fact is Tsukioka said Kamiko Island. It's there, there's no changing it. Perhaps if I find a more original Japanese version of the film with better subtitles, perhaps I'll find more of a better translation.
Either way, it's taking some time to translate these books I own. More to come soon. Substituting Hiragana and Katakana for Kanji is a b###*.
You all can look at the films The way you want to, it should be heavily noted that Toho had no real plans of continuing Godzilla after raids again. Even Tomoyuki Tanaka said "It's been 7 years since Godzilla raids again. How were we going to revive him?" And as Gman stated, when Toho realized they could make bank with their own crossover, that's what lead to Mothra vs Godzilla or as the Japanese title say "Mosura tai Gojira."
Oh. Well I'm glad that this dialogue can carry into two different pages.
Sweet thanks for all the info. I'll hafta grab these books and go through them myself.
I am going with what the film makers wanted it to be, a Kong victory. Godzilla was originally made because the film makers were fans and respected King Kong. If the original Kong and the original Godzilla fought of course the much bigger and stronger Godzilla most likely would have won, but that is boring. They wanted to tell a story so that story was up to them.
Host of the podcast Giant Monster Messages where we watch EVERY giant monster film and look for the messages.
^Why do you think he won? Could you please elaborate?
For me its a draw, Kong swam and Godzilla got lazy to fight back.
Godzilla Generations was a beautiful game! I loved the fact that there's a laser cannon inside of Dr. Serizawa's eyepatch.
It seems Kong won and I wanted Godzilla to win. I don't like seeing the two mix.
Longtime G-Fan from way back here...having seen both versions, the story positions Kong as the "good" monster while Godzilla is in "villain" mode here. Kong is the winner, because, simply, he's the first one to get back up while G is under the water still, either unconscious or having fled. And I'm a guy who nets on G against most opponents. But remember G was beaten by Mothra. Every Kaiju can have an off-day.
Sweet, thanks for both of your inputs. Im glad this topic gets brought up once in a awhile. This topic will never die!
I suppose another way to look at it is that G lost that battle but not necessarily the war so to speak. Down but not out.
Sign in to add a reply to this topic!