Godzilla '14 vs Godzilla '16

@Something Real - Unfortunately, I don't think he held them in high esteem. He probably had a bit of proprietorship over the work he did, and he felt that Godzilla was a riff of Beast from 20,000 Fathoms, and probably considered them low-brow effects.

"The traumatised Japanese nation instantly took to the 'destroying cities' genre, and 1954's Godzilla was born. 'Oh, the Godzilla stuff was a direct ...' Harryhausen bites his tongue as he says it. 'I don't like to use that word. But that was a filch from The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms.'

-the Guardian.com

In any case, Having grown up in the 60s and 70s, I grew up with a lot of "low brow" effects and loved them. I saw things with a sense of wonder, whether they were stop-motion, toku, models, color or black and white. It's a shame he felt that way, but happen to love them both. Each uses a method as a means to an end, and that end is to entrtain, astonish and give a sense of wonder to the boys and girls (of all ages) watching them.

I also have the coffee table book "Ray Harryhausen: An Animated Life." I'll have to see if there are any references there as well.

What Gman2887 wrote is one of the best explanations of the place of tokusatsu effects in Japanese culture and their relationship to sci-fi/kaiju films. It really is cultural. Certainly Toho, The Film company in Japan, knows this. To wrap one's head around this, a person has to try to see it from the inside out. They have to understand aspects of Japanese culture and art. As Gman said, the emphasis isn't on realism. It's style and mood, as the quote by Shiro Sano, fan of the series and actor in several recent Godzilla films, pointed out. Does 'realism' have a place. Yes, to a point. But the presentation, look and "mood" weigh heavy in the scale. Hers is a quote from the Production Notes to Godzilla 2000 Millennium:

"Strange as that description might seem, “charm” is crucial to the vast appeal of Godzilla. An expert perspective is offered by an American, an Academy Award-winning senior supervisor for an important visual effects company who traffics in all of the latest technologies. “I think that Japanese monster movies like Godzilla are charming in that there’s an agreement between the filmmaker and the audience to look past surface flaws, like the fact that the creature is obviously being played by a man in a rubber suit. In America, we spend a fortune erasing all seams that allow moviegoers the pleasure of knowing that what they’re watching is obviously special effects. Because of that, much time is spent making something technically perfect but often empty in terms of its soul.” (Quoted from Sci-Fi Japan-emphasis mine)

Now, in terms of the techincal aspects of the visual effects, we don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water while trying to maintain the 'style' of tokusatsu effects. I believe that artists like Shinji Higuchi are able to produce convincing enough effects, while, at the same time, giving the visuals 'that special, distinct look.' But, what I'm saying is that we will be able to 'believe' what we're seeing while enjoying the 'style' and 'mood' that arise, so naturally and, I might add, characteristically, from Japanese style practical effects. For it is these very effects that give tokusatsu films their 'soul.'

So, can Toho make a film like this and have it enjoy broad, international appeal? Maybe not in America. But, then again, it doesn't have to. A new Toho-produced Godzilla that is succesful in Japan will have achieved its goals. I see no reason why a Godzilla film made with a combination of practical and digital effects, if done well with imagination and a compelling story, cannot also do well in other countries, especially in Asia.

Plus, for me, it's the human element in the tokusatsu effects that give them their dream-like, surreal quality. In fact, Shusuke Kaneko said in an interview that giant monsters give him a 'dream-like' feeling. The advent of giant monsters, with nearly indescribable powers, would be something that people could not believe that they're actually seeing. Then again, part of it may be subconscious. It may be a matter of relating to something that is human made and enacted. Which suits and miniatures certainly are. But this is something that is highly personal and subjective.

But I love both: the Legendary CGI Godzilla and the Traditional Tokusatsu Godzilla. I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive as far as fan enjoyment. Since we are apparently getting a high-tech, digital Godzilla series from Legendary, this is all the more reason why Toho should make their Godzilla (and he is theirs, as Gman2887 pointed out) using the techniques that launched an entire genre.

"Because of that, much time is spent making something technically perfect but often empty in terms of its soul.”

There aren't enough "applause" gifs on the internet. You could've ended it all here, Jammal. Great quote.

JAMAAL and KOLDWARKID62 - The sheer amount of information you have provided is exceptional! Thank you so much for taking the time to provide this for me; it helps to answer quite a few questions I have been pondering and validates multiple thoughts I have had! This means a great deal to me! You guys are the best! :)

GMAN2887 - Hahaha! I concur 100%! Thank you once again for the link to the book to which you introduced me; I have ordered a copy and am expecting it to arrive within 2 weeks! You, like the others, are the best as well! :)

To All: I'm very pleased that we have a place where we can come togther and discuss things that really matter: Godzilla. and thank for all of the kind words.

Ironically, the quote from the Godzilla 2000 Millennium Production Notes was, I believe, partly a pushback of sorts to the dismissal of Godzilla 2000 as a 'inexpensive foreign import.' This term was actually used to describe the film Sony decided to give a stateside release. It is as if they were somewhat defensive about releasing a tokusatsu-style film here in the states. So, the charm aspect of the 23rd Godzilla film was placed front and center, as if to get in front of the anticipated rejection of a movie featuring the proverbial 'Man in a Suit.' 

It's a kind of cultural and artistic arrogance, if you think about.

If it's not digital (to some, at least), it's simply not worth seeing. Now, this is not to criticize people who prefer digital effects. Not at all. That's a matter of personal choice and taste. It's kind of like the differences between Godzilla fans regarding individual entries in the Series, or entire eras (Showa, Heisei, Millennium).

What I am referring to is the complete, out of hand, dismissal of practical effects to the point that any CGI, no matter how obvious, is considered vastly superior to any tokusatsu, no matter how well-done and finely, painstakingly, crafted.

And this just isn't true. 

@Jamaal,

"If it's not digital it's not worth seeing."

Funny how that can relate to my artwork. Mine is full traditional work, yet most people prefer this digital sh##. 

Unlike them, I definitely don't need a computer to do my work. Check out my YouTube video, http://youtu.be/RtbxsK_ffoM if that link doesn't work type in Godzilla artwork video part 1. :)

God I miss a lot! 

@BigBadBen:

Excatly.

It's the human element, the honed craftsmanship that makes this artform so rich and stylistically beautiful. I also think it's the idea that people are creating it, so to speak, hands on, applying what they've learned, master to protege, generation after generation. This is one reason why Toho Godzilla 2016 is so important. There's a lot more at stake than just a film making a profit.

JAMAAL - I could not agree more! Indeed; we are very lucky to have a place within which we can all geek-out to the maximum over Godzilla! As for individuals whom view any and all CGI as superior to practical effects, suitmation and Tokusatsu: I believe it is all a matter of taste. However, when a person limits his or her self to a narrow spectrum, the other, incredibly vibrant colors out there become blurred. Saying that CGI is better than practical effects is like saying the electricity that powers a computer is better than the electricity that powers a television. The energy, the life, that flows through and from creative expression in all art is the most important aspect - for that is what allows an audience to enjoy it! I do not need state-of-the-art digital effects to enjoy a film; I just need a good story, good characters, and a sense of authenticity that will make me believe! :)

BIGBADBEN - I also practice conventional art - mostly graphite and ink cartography. I must say, I greatly enjoy the conventional method better than digital; it just has more life in my opinion! Of course, I have seen some digital art that is absolutely stunning! :)

@Something Real:

Thank you for starting this discussion. I look forward, God willing, to many more as the film rolls into production. This is a great time for genre/kaiju/sci-fi fans: Pacific Rim 2, Toho Godzilla 2016, Kong: Skull Island, Legendary Godzilla 2, Jurassic World. Could it get any better?

Well, just need a Gamera film.... 

Gamera and a touch more Ultraman. I know we got an Ultraman film this year and I really want to see it, but it's mostly just to wrap up the poorly recieved Ginga series.

Next year is Ultraman's 50th. I hope Tsuburaya does something special.

I know we've gone wildly off-topic, but it's been a hell of a lot of fun. For the ultimate in practical effects, one need look no further than the original Universal monsters. Jack Pierce took common methods and materials and created some of the most iconic monsters/characters ever put to celluloid, and there wasn't a pixel within a million miles! So, practical effects done right can more than get the job done. I'm a huge proponent of digital media, but I would never ever discount practical effects. All a means to an end.

Also, look up the work of the late great Stan Winston (Stan Winston Studios), and Tom Woodruff and Alec Gillis of Amalgamated Dynamics, Inc. All great artists in modern practical effects.

GMAN2887, JAMAAL and KOLDWARKID62 - Indeed, this has been a very fun conversation! I certainly hope we can have many more in the weeks and months to come! I also happen to agree that we need a little more Gamera and little more Ultraman; both would add that extra splash of diversity to keep things really interesting! :)

Well, I see the point from all of you. You like the suitmation for the "stile" and the "cultural" history that bring itself.

However, from my point of view, Godzilla most evolve to a more biological entity now, not just a "symbol". Japanece Godzilla is a representation, USA Godzilla is a living been, that is the difernece that I see.

The examples of 300, Sin City and Kill Bill are accurate, as its stile is heavily artistic and nothing realistic (I loved all those movies). However, in the past, I would agree that suitmation was the correct way for Godzilla, specially with the mistake of 1998, BUT after 2014, the new Godzilla opened a completelly NEW universe, of great posibilities, and like an amateur Biologist, this win my heart.

So, the hard-core fans will definetly defent the suitmation and its japanese stile, but my personal taste is the realism, a Baroque-stile animation, CGI made it in the best way, but suitmation in the way of Stan Winston was the best in the world and I would like to see a Godzilla made in this way.

Definetly, my words are "heretic" from your points of view, but that is the amazing diversity of the Godzilla's world, we have all types of people and with thousands of ideas were Godzilla could be involved.

Your words aren't heretical. They just represent your views, and they are apparently at odds with those of us who still love, and even prefer, the traditional effects.

It's okay.

As for Godzilla 'evolving,' he already has. Legendary, Gareth Edwads and Thomas Tull have seen to that. So, there's your completely digital Godzilla. And, it worked. I liked it, even as a fan of the traditional, practical effects. However, in order to be really meaningful, Godzilla has to be more than 'just an animal.'  Those words were actually spoken by Matthew Broderick's character, Nick Tatapolis in Roland Emmerich's "Godzilla." And this is one of the many areas where their misinterpretation of this iconic kaiju went wrong. Their obsession with 'realism' and what they considered to 'plausible' resulted in a poorly made parody of a character that launched a series. Godzilla is Japanese. The film he's going to appear in will more than likely be made using traditional tokusatsu effects, enhanced with CGI. As the character is tied to Japan, this film will probably not only reflect this, but have it at its core.

Using both types of effects, melding them harmoniously, as Shinji Higuchi has done so well in the past, will allow Godzilla, within the context of his Japanes origins, to be not only an overwhelming monster, convincing to anyone with eyes, ears and a heart, but also a symbol in the land where the nuclear age began at 8:15 in the morning, on August 6, 1945.

Without this symbolism, he is, as the character from the 1998 film said, 'just an animal.'

GUATEGOJIRA - I would never state that your words are "heresy"! You simply have a different viewpoint - and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that! That is the most beautiful thing about being two autonimous, free-thinking beings: we can look at things differently and have separate ideas! This in no way signifies dissent; it simply means that we can appreciate something in all of its many forms! I greatly appreciate your insight and thoughts; however, most of all, I admire your dedication to the style you most enjoy! :)

GuateGojira,
It's fine that you want realism, but once again you're missing the point when you use the word "evolve" here. Godzilla can evolve in the realm of toku as well and with Higuchi behind the camera calling the shots I have no doubt he will. Does that mean it will be more realistic? No. Not necessarily, but the look and mood of the effects will very much change and go in a new and different direction. That's more important.

The 2014 Godzilla only opened up the possibilities of "realism" for Godzilla. That doesn't mean it's a full on evolution. It's just a different take on the monster and one that is not the absolute. Understand that it may be your preference, but it is not the ultimate form of bringing him to life. It's simply a different outlet.

The nice thing is that there is plenty of room for both ways of bringing Godzilla to life.

That being said I like the 2014 Godzilla fine, but I honestly don't think it's in my top 5 favorite realizations of the monster. Maybe not my top 10. I'm not sure.

GMAN2887 - If you do not mind me asking, what iteration of Godzilla is your favorite? :)

Something Real,
That's a good question and one I'd like more time to think about, but my knee-jerk reaction is 89/91. In those movies Godzilla looked organic, muscular and imposing while maintaining the anthropomorphic beauty of suitmation. I also love the animatronic heads used for close-ups where his lips could curl and nose wrinkled.

The animatronic head close-ups improved as the Heisei series went on. The suits did not. There's really something incredible about Godzilla's march as he makes it to shore in Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah. I don't think a scene in a Godzilla film has been quite as majestic in a drawn out entrance.

GMAN2887 - Hahaha! Indeed; the animatronics were quite well done! I always felt that the early Heisei versions were the most frightening. There was something about the eyes and facial movements that gave Godzilla a, hmm, menacing appearance! I am not ashamed to admit that Godzilla terrified me at certain points when I was little! :)

I had to quote this in this post, it was so beautiful:

"In those movies Godzilla looked organic, muscular and imposing while maintaining the anthropomorphic beauty of suitmation."

Excellently put, Gman2887.

Yes; this is it: the anthropomorphic beauty of suitmation. This is why we, and many others, are drawn to, and love it, so much.

I hope you dont mind if I shimmy onto the dance floor that is this conversation. 

If you were to ask me what I look for in Godzilla in terms of the visual representation, I would always come to the conclusion that suitmation is just as good as CGI. The only problem I ever have with suitmation is how stiff it feels, such as when Godzilla engages in close combat with another monster only to be slamed from the side by his opponents tail. And the whole time his body is as stiff as a doornail, even when he gets up he just kinda levitates into a standing position. But it's always been more of a little thing that my over-analyzing brain brings to the forefront when it happens.

To move back on topic, I find both methods (CG and Suit) Inferior to animatronics, though I say this only because I see boundless untapped potential in the field. When it comes to acctual ability at present both suit and CG are quite abit further ahead when it comes to what can be done with the methods at present. Where because of technical limitations, I feel animatronics are still in a sort of infincy when it comes to the sheer untapped potential it still poses as a result of being limited by the technological means of the creators. But it is not only the animatronic itself that intrigues me but the potential of the animatronic once given an AI with a reative program (to keep it simple), what I mean by a reactive program will be the video link posted underneath this paragragh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtU9p1VYtcQ

Now if you watched that video I hope you can kinda see where I'm coming from on my stance of animatronics haveing vast untapped potential in the film industrie. Take what you just saw and imagine Godzilla walking around like that, nobody inside like a suit, just the animatronic and whatever it is programed to do. Now take the rubber suit off your Godzilla and give him a hardened skin outer suit, but around the electronics is an extremely realistic flesh like gell contained inside a tight knit polymer/kevlar covering.

Now just like before, have Godzilla get hit by his opponents tail and instead of him falling over stiff as a doorknail. He flinches away from the blow as the impact visibly imprints on his body through the gell vibrateing out from the epicenter of the hit. And instead of just falling over he stumbles to the side but catches himself just like in the video above.

But now this is where alot of the people ive told this too critisize me, imagine all of that but with Biomechanical components that represent a mostly natural organism. From it's movement , to it's behavioral abillitys and more. Godzilla would no longer require a suspension of disbelief because how can you disbelieve something thats just as real as you are. The only suspension that would be needed is that the creature is a few hundred feet tall instead of human sized, as it more than likely would be, unfortunately.

Sorry if that was a little long winded butt in on your conversation but it looked like an interesting conversation that I wanted to express my preferance in aswell.

@Cryolophosaurus - That's pretty amazing stuff. Being a Boston boy, I looked them up. They are a hop and a skip from where I work. The physics dynamics programmed in could work quite well for Godzilla and friends.

I have to imagine, though, that such tech would come with a hefty pricetag, but perhaps some variation of this.

I get your crtitique of suitmation. That's been one of my nitpicks as well. It has its limitations. You want to see these characters emote and change expression; show a bit more dynamic movement. I'm a proponent of "mixed media/techniques", very similar to what was done in JP and other movies bringing fanatastic creatures to life. They are supposed to be stylized creatures, but you still want to see real life movements and reactions and a combination of toku, animatronics and CG could work very well. I'm looking forward to what these filmmakers bring.

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