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Mothra Leo and Zilla Junior's Birth: A Lazily Made Theory

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TheLazyFish

RodanMember1630 XPDec-13-2019 1:37 PM

The problem I have found: the asexual reproduction of Mothra Leo and Zilla Junior makes NO GOD DAMN SENSE!

 

It's said Mothra reproduces asexually... but Mothra Leo is not only a male (which shouldn't be possible under asexual reproduction unless using the ZW system, which I don't THINK Moths use), but has very different genetic traits and powers, which is practically impossible under asexual reproduction. Especially when considering every time she DOES reproduce in movies, it's Mothra twin SISTERS, and they are basically exactly the same. So how the hell did Mothra Leo not only become MALE (while the aforementioned ZW system is possible, I don't think many Moth species use it, if any. Still, even if that is true, why are all the other Mothra offspring female in every other continuity?), but inherent almost completely different genes and powers? I swear, something fishy is going on here. 

 

Then there's Zilla, who's "male", but is able to reproduce asexually and carries EGGS, but not sperm as far as anyone knows, so how is Zilla male? And then Zilla Junior is much larger, stronger, smarter, etc than Zilla was and clearly shows different genetics, on top of being male and confirming that males of the species are STERILE. But the only other member of his species that could reproduce at all, and ASEXUALLY on top of that, is Komodinatrix, a known FEMALE. So not only does it make no sense for Zilla to be male, but again, the offspring shows different appearance and abilities, so asexual reproduction doesn't seem to fit either...

 

So, how does this make any sense at all?

 

Well, here's my theory:

 

For Mothra, maybe her species evolved to be able to use the ZW system, if moths can't use it. At the same time, the polluted air in the atmosphere, the high amounts of radiation, and the fact he was born during his mother's fight against Desghidorah caused deformations in Mothra Leo, resulting in his different appearance and powers. Still, slim. Maybe males of Mothra's species have these abilities and females don't? Maybe there was a male of Mothra's species that hadn't been discovered yet, and the two mated and produced Mothra Leo, which explains the different gender, appearance, and powers if the father possessed certain genes that would have bestowed these abilities onto Mothra Leo.

 

For Zilla, there's a much less complicated solution, in my opinion. For Zilla, I believe the creature was actually female the whole time, and not only NOT reproducing asexually, but was actually pregnant before her mutation. This would explain why Zilla Junior has different genetics, because he's carrying his father's genes. It also explains why he's sterile, because of deformations in the egg, he ended up being irradiated and unable to reproduce. But why did everyone in Godzilla 1998 call Zilla "he" then? Well, usually they called Zilla "it" if I recall, but say they did call Zilla "he." Well, to quote Ian Malcolm, "But again, how do you know they're all female? Does someone go into the park and, uh - - lift up the
dinosaurs' skirts?" Besides the fact that I don't really believe they KNEW Zilla's sex, I do also believe they wouldn't have bothered to check. Why? Well, a giant monster is attacking the city, and most of their weaponry is proving useless against it, and their only hope lies in a damned worm doctor and french special agents. Do you think they'd bother to check whether or not it's male? And then there's Nick, who again, probably didn't realize, or if not, just didn't care. I mean, if you're a worm biologist tasked with coming up with a plan using French special agents and the American military to fight a giant, radioactive lizard and you have only a few hours to figure out how to do so or else your entire town or maybe even the world is killed by it and its children, would you bother to correct people, or even yourself from calling it "he" if it's a female? Plus, even if they all knew, they'd probably call Zilla "he" for the same reason people called Roberta in Jurassic Park (book) "he"- it just suits more, apparently. 

 

So, long theory short, Mothra Leo is likely the result of sexual reproduction instead of asexual reproduction, or Mothra's species evolved to be able to asexually reproduce under the ZW system (even then, the chances of her having daughters would be SUPER slim, so that doesn't seem to work) and males of her species are the only ones with Mothra Leo's powers. Zilla was probably female and pregnant with her children instead of being an asexually reproducing male. The reason nobody called Zilla a "her" is because they were calling Zilla "it" usually and also because they didn't care since she was, you know, destroying New York and was about to create about 400 more of herself. 

 

If there's anything to take away from this, the asexual reproduction explanations for the birth of both Mothra Leo and Zilla Junior is sketchy at best, and pretty much impossible at worst. Then again, we're talking about a giant, somewhat magical moth and a giant, radioactive iguana, so I think realism was kinda thrown out the window awhile ago.

 

Also, if anyone else has an explanation for these sketchy situations, please let me know in the comments. These explanations have always irked me, and I'd like to hear a logical explanation for them.

If people weren't lazy, we wouldn't try to be efficient. If we weren't efficient, we'd never get anything done.

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56 Responses to Mothra Leo and Zilla Junior's Birth: A Lazily Made Theory

JurassicKaiju14

TitanosaurusMember616 XPDec-15-2019 10:41 AM

Xenotaris I don't really want to see Zilla in the MonsterVerse. But if you want to see Zilla get a little more respect, go read Godzilla: Rulers of Earth. Godzilla and Zilla have a battle at the beginning of the comic, and Zilla actually manages to hold his own for a little while, and in general he's given much better treatment.

A true fan can acknowledge the bad while still appreciating and cherishing the good.

TheLazyFish

RodanMember1630 XPDec-15-2019 11:09 AM

Xenotaris

I agree, I feel Zilla would fit right into the Monsterverse if they buff her size to Zilla in Final Wars and get rid of the "asexual reproduction" thing. If they get rid of that, they'd definitely be able to do that. Hell, they wouldn't even need to buy the rights to it since they already have the rights to Godzilla- Oh wait, never mind. Toho already made Zilla into a separate character... damn it.

 

But if you want to see Zilla shine a bit more, you should read Godzilla: Rulers Of Earth. Really good comic and Zilla has a cool scene in the beginning that seems to redeem her at least a little.

If people weren't lazy, we wouldn't try to be efficient. If we weren't efficient, we'd never get anything done.

Monster_Zero

AnguirusMember1183 XPDec-16-2019 9:14 AMTeam Godzilla

I actually don't care about Mothra being able to reproduce asexually, but Zilla, now THAT'S a whole new thing. In 1998's Godzilla, they made him, into a her and then, a I don't know how many small Godzillas running around, cause that can't happen. Godzilla is KING of the monsters, not queen.

YOU CAN'T MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY, YOU'RE NOT A TACO.

TheLazyFish

RodanMember1630 XPDec-16-2019 9:53 AM

Monster_Zero 2112

Technically they still kept calling Zilla "he", but due to the way biology works, Zilla has to be a female. Honestly, I couldn't care less so long as the movie was actually good, then this "that's not how biology works" stuff just be a nitpick. But the movie sucked, so... I get to nitpick a little lol.

 

If people weren't lazy, we wouldn't try to be efficient. If we weren't efficient, we'd never get anything done.

Xenotaris

GiganMember2719 XPDec-16-2019 10:38 AMTeam Mothra

Monster_Zero 2112

Why can't there be a female godzilla? Why must Godzilla always be male? This conundrum is probably the reason why they kept calling Zilla a "he" because no-one wants to make an official female member of godzilla's species 

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Monster_Zero

AnguirusMember1183 XPDec-16-2019 10:59 AMTeam Godzilla

Eh. I don't know. I always looked at Godzilla as a "he", and never a "she"

YOU CAN'T MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY, YOU'RE NOT A TACO.

TheLazyFish

RodanMember1630 XPDec-16-2019 11:31 AM

Monster_Zero 2112

Yeah, it really doesn't make all that much difference to me. I mean, it's like with Rodan, you usually think Rodan as a he, but in the original Rodan movie, there was both a male and a female. So, either way, you could just say he or she concerning Rodan unless it's specified... or if they biologically HAVE to be female like with Zilla, even though they keep calling it "he". I guess this is also like what Muldoon said in the Jurassic Park novel, how Roberta (the T-rex) was female, but they keep calling her a he because it just seemed to fit better. Similar situation here, I guess. 

If people weren't lazy, we wouldn't try to be efficient. If we weren't efficient, we'd never get anything done.

Xenotaris

GiganMember2719 XPDec-16-2019 1:18 PMTeam Mothra

I get what Muldoon was saying but its rather sexist say that only males could invoke being a being of power and death.

There are plenty of deadly females in the animal kingdom, its just we humans tend to have a gender bias.

Look at female spiders, they are bigger and far more dangerous than the males.

Female lions actually do all the hunting while male lions sit at home sleeping (unless other unrelated males are nearby).

Hyenas tend to be gender-blind in their social structure

Angler fish females are bigger and scarier than their male counterparts.

Female ants out number male ants 1000 to 1, among these ladies are the Queen, Soldiers, and workers while male ants are loners or sex slaves to the queen.

Similiar to the ants example, females bees too. Males live outside of the hive and are little more than prostitutes to the queens.

Elephants, only females are in charge of the herd while adult male elephants are kicked out of the herd and only return to have sex before leaving again. The male elephants fear the large and in charge matriarch 

Female predator animals are by no definition weak and are just as strong as their male counterparts.

Its just in humans, females are weak.

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Gomi: Ninja Monster

BaragonMember251 XPDec-16-2019 2:05 PM

Well not just humans, but yes, in general the animal kingdom is pretty evenly split when it comes to which sex is the bigger or more aggressive. Should also be pointed out that in every case of sexual dimorphism it's not quite a matter of weak/strong, more each sex is suited for different jobs, and combat/hunting isn't always one of those.

As for why there has never been a female Godzilla though, I'd argue that has more to do with him being a character first and a species second, if ever depending on the media. It's the reason there isn't a female Batman or James Bond, or a male Ellen Ripley, because that's how the characters were invented. There are genderswapped or alternate versions sure, but they are exactly that, altered versions of the original concept.

TheLazyFish

RodanMember1630 XPDec-16-2019 2:22 PM

Xenotaris

Yeah, yeah, of course it's at least somewhat sexist and inaccurate, BUT as I don't think that's what Muldoon was implying. I think what he was ACTUALLY trying to say was that it just FEELS more right to say he, not exactly saying that only males can bring that sense of power. That's why we usually have male Rodans or Godzillas, it just seems to "feel" more right. Same with Mothra. Not exactly that it IS right, it just seems to fit. Again, it is mostly subject to opinion, and it doesn't necessarily fit for everything and the only real reason it seems to fit is because we grew up knowing Godzilla as a "he". Muldoon wasn't saying that only a male, "could invoke being a being of power and death," he was just offering why they kept accidentally calling Roberta "he", because of how they grew up, it just seemed to fit. It was an explanation of how it just seemed to "fit" more, nothing more.

If people weren't lazy, we wouldn't try to be efficient. If we weren't efficient, we'd never get anything done.

Xenotaris

GiganMember2719 XPDec-16-2019 2:37 PMTeam Mothra

Gomi: Ninja Monster

You can't really use Ellen Ripley, Batman, or James bond because we know what male and female humans look like but for a creature like godzilla we never get to see any gender variation of his species.

Also we have a female batman, she is called Batwoman or Bat Girl.

We have a female James Bond, generic cat suit spy chick.

We have a male Ellen Ripley, generic space-opera hero dude.

I mean no disrespect to these characters but you can't compare godzilla to human characters for one thing humans get a lot more screen time and have diverse roles.

We do get a male Mothra, his name is Mothra Leo or Rainbow Mothra

Saying that a female tyrannosaurus feels better to call it a he is sexist, that would be like me saying it feels better to call dogs he despite that said he is giving birth or saying all cats are shes when you can clearly see that one of them "girls" has a nut sack!

 

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TheLazyFish

RodanMember1630 XPDec-16-2019 2:50 PM

Xenotaris

No, that's not the same thing. Those are different characters, respectively, each with their own personality, backstory, motives, etc, even if they are similar. Making a female Godzilla would be the same character. Again, not against it, BUT that's why you CAN compare it to a human character, because we always focus on an individual Godzilla. It's like if you said making Mikey from Monsters Inc into a female wouldn't change anything because he's not human. 

 

Well, by THAT logic, assuming any creature is he or she before, as Ian Malcolm puts it, "lifting up their skirts" is inherently sexist. The only difference between that assumption you make and what Muldoon said is that Muldoon said and acknowledges it. He's not saying it's "better" to call Roberta he, he's saying why they accidentally call Roberta a he instead of she or why they just do that. 

If people weren't lazy, we wouldn't try to be efficient. If we weren't efficient, we'd never get anything done.

Gomi: Ninja Monster

BaragonMember251 XPDec-16-2019 3:51 PM

What Lazy said, my point is that Godzilla is a character, (originally)a reawakened irradiated male dinosaur. To use G VS KG as an example: Godzillasaurus is a species of theropod dinosaur, Godzilla is a specific male member of this taxon who has been mutated into a larger creature with the ability to emit an atomic beam from his mouth. So while there could definitely be an onscreen female of Godzilla's species somewhere down the line in a future movie, GODZILLA himself will always be male.

Funny you should mention that, as science has occasionally made mistakes like that, not necessarily by gender bias, but more through a lack of information. Hyenas are an excellent example. Female hyenas are larger than males, and their genitals are actually incredibly similar to the males'. Scientists observing them originally saw the bigger animals bossing the smaller ones around, saw "under the skirt," and based on other carnivore social structures like lions, assumed the big ones in charge were males. That turned out to be dead wrong, but it took more observation and studying of the animal's anatomy before that came to light. These scientists weren't being sexist, they were simply drawing the logical conclusion based on the limited information they had available to them.

G. H. (Gman)

GiganAdmin4209 XPDec-16-2019 5:09 PMTeam Ghidorah

Although Toho's official position is Godzilla is always male, Ken Satsuma who played the Heisei Godzilla from 1984-1995 felt a need to play Godzilla's gender ambiguous depending on the movie or scene. He cryptically said:

"When Godzilla shows up, sometimes it’s a male, sometimes a female. If you want to know about the family tree, I can’t tell you. It’s very complicated."

Also when Yoshimitsu Banno tried to fund his own movie, Godzilla: 3D to the Max (which eventually morphed into the 2014 movie), his story treatment claimed Godzilla was female, calling her, "Godzilla: Queen of the Jungle".

The unmade A Space Godzilla would have retconned Godzilla to be a female alien from Godzilla Planet. This is before her pregnant body is turned into a rocket ship by humankind and jettisoned into outer space. So there's that...

"None of this makes any sense, it doesn't really matter. We just needed an excuse for them to do something and they had to go somewhere." - Adam Wingard

Gomi: Ninja Monster

BaragonMember251 XPDec-16-2019 6:00 PM

Oh yeah, I heard about that last one. Made it to a magazine too, though I feel that kinda puts it in the same position as the Marvel or DC alternate earths, canon but not the "real/prime thing," Whatever constitutes that for Godzilla. :P

G. H. (Gman)

GiganAdmin4209 XPDec-16-2019 6:29 PMTeam Ghidorah

Considering there's 12 different canon continuities in the Godzilla franchise...

"None of this makes any sense, it doesn't really matter. We just needed an excuse for them to do something and they had to go somewhere." - Adam Wingard

Xenotaris

GiganMember2719 XPDec-16-2019 6:46 PMTeam Mothra

Hmmm I think I might be using the wrong word but I wasn't calling any scientist sexist. But yeah there were several concepts cancelled films of introducing a female godzilla.

Also Godzilla himself has been in several continuities all of them male or given male pronouns.

Showa has three Godzillas: Original, Second Godzilla, and Minilla

Heisei has three godzillas: Original, Second Godzilla, and Godzilla Jr.

Tri-star has the most Godzillas: Mama "Daddy" Zilla, Zilla Jr, and legions of Baby Godzillas

Millienium has seven godzillas?: Original, Second Godzilla (G2k), Second Godzilla (GvMG), GMK Godzilla, Kiryu Saga Godzilla, Final Wars Zilla, Final Wars Godzilla and Final Wars Minilla (Yes Included Zilla as a type of Godzilla)

Monsterverse has two Godzilla: Dagon/Adam and Godzilla

Reiwa has three Godzillas: Shin Godzilla (not counting his multiform 5th form), Godzilla filius, and Godzilla Earth

 

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TheLazyFish

RodanMember1630 XPDec-16-2019 7:01 PM

Well, Dagon never got a pronoun besides "it." 

"Is... is it him?"

"No... this is much older."

And then Dagon's never referred to again. Dagon was intentionally left ambiguous, so we can wonder what kind of relation Dagon had with Godzilla, if any. 

If people weren't lazy, we wouldn't try to be efficient. If we weren't efficient, we'd never get anything done.

G. H. (Gman)

GiganAdmin4209 XPDec-16-2019 7:11 PMTeam Ghidorah

The Millennium and Reiwa monikers are not continuities but eras.

The Millennium era has 5 continuities. Reiwa has 2.

There are two Godzillas in the Godzilla 2000 continuity.

There's only one Godzilla in the Godzilla x Megaguirus continuity.

Two in the GMK continuity.

Two in the Kiryu Saga continuity.

Two in the Final Wars continuity. (Minilla is the second.)

One in the Shin continuity.

And finally two in the Anime continuity.

"None of this makes any sense, it doesn't really matter. We just needed an excuse for them to do something and they had to go somewhere." - Adam Wingard

JurassicKaiju14

TitanosaurusMember616 XPDec-16-2019 7:15 PM

G. H. (Gman) "There are two Godzillas in the Godzilla 2000 continuity."

Is there an official source for that? I don't recall that being mentioned in the film. Then again, I've only seen the American version, so it's likely not the most accurate source.

A true fan can acknowledge the bad while still appreciating and cherishing the good.

TheLazyFish

RodanMember1630 XPDec-16-2019 7:19 PM

JurassicKaiju14

It's not directly stated if I remember right, but there's two because it's like Godzilla Returns in 1984. It resets the timeline to take place after the first movie, which means that Godzilla 1954 took place. Since the Godzilla in that movie died, that has to mean the one in Godzilla 2000 is a separate individual, especially when considering the very different design and somewhat different powers as well. 

If people weren't lazy, we wouldn't try to be efficient. If we weren't efficient, we'd never get anything done.

G. H. (Gman)

GiganAdmin4209 XPDec-16-2019 7:32 PMTeam Ghidorah

JurassicKaiju14,
Yes. Before godzilla.jp was turned into the Godzilla Store's official website, it was Toho's official Godzilla website.

The godzilla.jp confirmed the Godzilla in Godzilla 2000 was the second after 1954 in the circled paragraph of this screenshot:


Translated to English:
"The huge monster that suddenly appeared at Cape Nofuku in Hokkaido was the second Godzilla after the one that had landed in Tokyo in 1954. This Godzilla appeared in Ibaraki Prefecture and a battle between Godzilla and a huge UFO broke out. Finally, the UFO revealed it was the monster Orga from space that evolved by taking the cells of Godzilla's body!"

Though this isn't mentioned in either the Japanese or American versions, I highly recommend watching the Japanese version for a different tonal take on the film. Not to mention the fact some creepy moments were cut from the American version.

"None of this makes any sense, it doesn't really matter. We just needed an excuse for them to do something and they had to go somewhere." - Adam Wingard

JurassicKaiju14

TitanosaurusMember616 XPDec-16-2019 7:37 PM

G. H. (Gman) Thanks for the confirmation.

A true fan can acknowledge the bad while still appreciating and cherishing the good.

G. H. (Gman)

GiganAdmin4209 XPDec-16-2019 7:40 PMTeam Ghidorah

TheLazyFish,
There are exceptions, however. In Godzilla x Megaguirus it's clearly stated that Godzilla attacked in 1954, but was not killed. The events in that continuity do not follow the same events from 1954 that we're used to. That Godzilla appeared in 1954 and returned in 1966 & 1996 before the events of the film in 2001.

The Final Wars Godzilla is the same way. He appeared in 1954, but was not killed. Just sealed away for many years before the X invasion in "20XX".

"None of this makes any sense, it doesn't really matter. We just needed an excuse for them to do something and they had to go somewhere." - Adam Wingard

TheLazyFish

RodanMember1630 XPDec-16-2019 7:50 PM

G.H. (Gman)

Ah, still haven't seen those two I'm afraid. Well, I watched Godzilla V.S. Megaguirus when I was a kid, but it's been so long that I forgot almost everything except my mother made a joke how I'd never do for her what the Meganula did for Megaguirus and that Godzilla survived two black holes lol.

If people weren't lazy, we wouldn't try to be efficient. If we weren't efficient, we'd never get anything done.

Xenotaris

GiganMember2719 XPDec-19-2019 1:51 PMTeam Mothra

I meant to say Era, not continuity 

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